Still aiming for sub 20-min 5k...

[GavMoon]

OK TheEd I got it done this morning - 16:16. It was a solid effort and I didn't leave much out there. This is going by Garmin's distance btw, I didn't go to a track. (But since all my training will be based off Garmin's paces anyway, I think that's ok)

Here is a quick debrief:

During the warm up, even 4:30 pace felt fast. 17 mins seemed optimistic.

1st km - find a sustainable pace
- 4:09 / HR quickly into the 160s and climbing - felt happy with this pace.

2nd km - setting into a relaxed rhythm
- 4:06 / HR into the low 170s. I kicked the pace on a bit in this km without really intending to

3rd km - hang on (now concerned I'd overcooked it)
- 4:06 / HR still low 170s. What motivated me to keep going was the thought of writing here that I'd beaten my target!

4th km - open up
- 3:55 / HR stepped up to the low 180s (i.e. max). This wasn't comfortable at all but the end was in sight.

In general it was HR and breathing that felt like the constraint, not the legs.
By the end I was done for though.
HR rose quicker than normal - I feel ok in general but seem to have a higher underlying level of stress / HRV. I'm blaming this on the new job I started last week, which is intense.

Can we base a plan off this?
My running days are Mon/Wed/Fri. I can squeeze (up to) an hour in on Mondays, and up to 45 mins on the other days. I can do extra kms on the weekend somehow if needed.
Cheers,
GM

[TheEd]

Hi GM .. if anything it shows you have ability to push yourself to get a result

I shall formulate a small plan whereby I utilise the days available to you and best using the training framework to help

TheEd

[GavMoon]

Hi TheEd - hope all is well your end. It's 4 weeks since the messages above but I haven't heard anything!
News here is I'm moving to 4 runs a week, dropping the swims to just 1 a week. This week was only the 2nd week but it's something like:
Mon: 7-8k maybe some longer intervals
Weds 7-8k easy
Fri: 7-8k intervals
Sun: easy long - 10-15k

[TheEd]

HI GM, I have checked in manually and will reply to this message, please let me know whether you receive the email

what have you in store as longer intervals .. 1200 .. 1500 .. 1600 .. 2000 ?? these are normally at 10k pace if you choose a distance

TheEd

[GavMoon]

Hi TheEd - no I'm not getting any emails at the moment. Just check when I remember (like tonight!)

"Longer intervals" for my Monday session is normally something like a steady 20 min or maybe 2x10 mins, 3x8 mins that sort of thing.

Friday's session is the one to go harder, which might be 200s, 400s, 800s, 1k intervals, I did 3x2k once which was solid but felt like a great session. From memory 10 years ago you used to like prescribing the 1600m, 1000m and 400m interval sessions?

I'll try to remember to check more regularly if the email alerts don't seem to be working.
Thanks! GM

[TheEd]

Hi GM .. I received the email notification, so best check your spam folder and whitelist the TTR email

when you do the 10 minute longer intervals .. what pace and pulse are you at .. I am always interested in that data

the 2000m session, is the session but is tough on those doing it alone .. our home training group is quite large now (mostly over 40 years of age) and they are not a big fan of the 2k session .. I prescribed the 1600m as it was mentally easier

1000's are 1000's and are quite easy in comparison .. I change that session if it gets hot this side

the problem with the 400m session is those athletes online often run the 400m too hard as it feels easy and that shouldn't be the aim .. run on target is development going faster is not better .. whereas as 1 second slower is no damage at all

hope this is helpful TheEd

[GavMoon]

Hi TheEd - I will check the spam folder. I remember to check the forum when I'm out running but have forgotten by the time I'm back home!

The paces are interesting - this is where I feel most unsure of what I should be doing.

I'm up to about 35km/week now with my 4 run a week. The long run is about 11-12k at the moment but I plan to slowly extend it towards 15k / 1.5h.

Here is some data for you. I would welcome comments and suggestions please!

Friday 21st - 6x800m progression from 4:15 pace to 3:47 pace with 75s easy jog in between.
HR ranged from mid 150s to mid 160s to low 170s on the 5th one and nudged the high 170s on the 6th and fastest one.

Monday 17th - 2x10 mins around 4:20 pace.
HR was mid 150s on the first and mid 160s on the second.

Friday 14th - 8x120m up a hill - early intervals around 4:00 pace and later ones around 3:40 pace
HR peaked (not average) around early 160s to start with, mid 170s towards the end.
These had a good 1 min or more of easy job in between, HR returned close to 120 before starting the next one.

Weds 12th - 6k steady (4:35) - this week was a bit messed up hence doing steady work on Weds instead of Monday.
HR averaged 154 with a max of 164.

In general I feel the HR has been higher than expected for the last couple of months. The kids have had a lot of colds, I had covid, the missus had flu. I don't feel too bad but from memory over the summer I think I could run 4:30 or maybe 4:35 "steady" intervals with HR in the 140s but I reckon right now it would be in the 150s.

But I am feeling pretty OK. The 16:16 4k test was a pleasant surprise because HR data and training paces had suggested I wasn't in great shape.
I was thinking maybe a steady 20 mins for Monday and the 1600m intervals (x3?) for Friday. What would you suggest?
I might do a parkrun on the 7th July before we go on holiday for a few weeks.

[TheEd]

Hi GM, for some reason the email slipped past my radar

Here is some data for you. I would welcome comments and suggestions please!

Friday 21st - 6x800m progression from 4:15 pace to 3:47 pace with 75s easy jog in between.

HR ranged from mid 150s to mid 160s to low 170s on the 5th one and nudged the high 170s on the 6th and fastest one. '

would be interesting to see what your pulse drops to during the recovery

Monday 17th - 2x10 mins around 4:20 pace.
HR was mid 150s on the first and mid 160s on the second.

Monday session looks OK

Friday 14th - 8x120m up a hill - early intervals around 4:00 pace and later ones around 3:40 pace

in truth, you would get more benefit running them all at 4:00 to 4:15 per k ... we like to use a hill which is longer and we run it easier

HR peaked (not average) around early 160s to start with, mid 170s towards the end.
These had a good 1 min or more of easy job in between, HR returned close to 120 before starting the next one. '

if you looking to run 800 / 1500m on the track you would benefit from the higher intensity otherwise running them more comfortably would be more beneficial

Weds 12th - 6k steady (4:35) - this week was a bit messed up hence doing steady work on Weds instead of Monday.
HR averaged 154 with a max of 164.

try not to have the tempo pulse going over 160 and attempt to have it hovering more closer to 155 bpm

there is a fair amount of quality there and it would be good to have a 2 to 3 week cycle with more easy aerobic runs thrown in where the pulse is closer to 140 bpm

all in all, you have a good nucleus of training there but need to consider whether the body is absorbing and that with more easy aerobic runs, you should reap the rewards from the overall quality

hope this helps TheEd

[GavMoon]

Hi TheEd,

Thanks for this, there's some information in there that I'm going to find really helpful. I also got the email notification this time

Takeaways from your latest response:
- 100m fast hill sprints probably not that useful for me. Longer, easier hill reps would be better.
- Try to keep the HR below 160 on tempo intervals.
- Whether the body is absorbing the training is a great question. There's a lot "going around" in Melbourne this winter and we've had plenty of sickness in the house. I had covid about a month ago, a bit under the weather again now, and started a new job in May which for now is still quite intense.

Here is the latest data for you:

Today (Sunday 30th) - 12.5km long run, 5:18 pace.
Avg HR = 125, max = 142.
This was comfortable, legs quite tired by the end. This is my longest run in my "modern era".
Question: is this HR/pace ok or should it be faster? I've heard long runs should be "conversational" but even at this HR I'd be takin deep breaths between sentences I think. But should the HR be closer to 135-140 or so? I tried the Macmillan training paces calculator and it said around 5:10.

Friday 28th - 3x1600, 4:12 pace. 90 easy jog. I liked this - felt like good training without pushing too hard. Good fatigue in the legs on the 3rd one.
1. 4:12 pace, Avg HR 157, max HR 167
Min HR during easy jog = 115 (I had to sort of stop to take coat off)
2. 4:11 pace, avg HR 161, max HR 169
Min HR during easy jog = 128
3. 4:13 pace, avg HR 165, max HR 174

Wednesday 26th - steady 8k, 5:18 pace
Avg HR = 130, Max = 147.

Monday 24th - 20 mins steady, 4:32 pace
Avg HR = 152, max HR = 160.

And to answer your question on the 6x800 session I did on Friday 21st, the min HR between the intervals was:
1 - 119
2 - 124
3 - 126
4 - 131
5 - 133

Depending on how I feel, I was thinking Monday I might do ~5k at a slightly easier pace say 4:45 ish.
Then for Friday's intervals session I'm open to suggestions. If a Parkrun on Sat is still on the card (depends how soon I shake this cold) then I'll move things around and do a reduce session like 5x500 on the Thursday. If Parkrun isn't going to happen then maybe 8x400? 5x1k? I'd like to know what you'd suggest.

Many thanks,
GM

[TheEd]

Hi GM,

Thanks for this, there's some information in there that I'm going to find really helpful. I also got the email notification this time

glad its helpful

Takeaways from your latest response:
- 100m fast hill sprints probably not that useful for me. Longer, easier hill reps would be better.
- Try to keep the HR below 160 on tempo intervals.
- Whether the body is absorbing the training is a great question. There's a lot "going around" in Melbourne this winter and we've had plenty of sickness in the house. I had covid about a month ago, a bit under the weather again now, and started a new job in May which for now is still quite intense.

be cautious and watch for fluctuations in your morning pulse .. if your pulse is higher than normal doing certain similar sessions that can be telling, however if the recovery pulse drops quickly then it is often OK however if the recovery pulse is high then the chance of there still being remnants of a bug is high .. cautian and drink lots of water

Here is the latest data for you:

Today (Sunday 30th) - 12.5km long run, 5:18 pace.
Avg HR = 125, max = 142.
This was comfortable, legs quite tired by the end. This is my longest run in my "modern era".
Question: is this HR/pace ok or should it be faster? I've heard long runs should be "conversational" but even at this HR I'd be takin deep breaths between sentences I think. But should the HR be closer to 135-140 or so? I tried the Macmillan training paces calculator and it said around 5:10.

the pace and pulse seems fine .. what you could do and what I recommend with our group is to break the longer runs into segments of 3 or even if it is time based then 3 x 20 minutes with a stop and stretch and a water break and then proceed .. you still get the distance in but you lower the unnecessary fatigue due to continuous running

Friday 28th - 3x1600, 4:12 pace. 90 easy jog. I liked this - felt like good training without pushing too hard. Good fatigue in the legs on the 3rd one.
1. 4:12 pace, Avg HR 157, max HR 167
Min HR during easy jog = 115 (I had to sort of stop to take coat off)
2. 4:11 pace, avg HR 161, max HR 169
Min HR during easy jog = 128
3. 4:13 pace, avg HR 165, max HR 174

this looks a decent session

Wednesday 26th - steady 8k, 5:18 pace
Avg HR = 130, Max = 147.

nice pulse range .. you see the definite change when at the same pulse the runs become 10 seconds per k faster

Monday 24th - 20 mins steady, 4:32 pace
Avg HR = 152, max HR = 160.


have you considered popping some swimming in, in-between your runs

And to answer your question on the 6x800 session I did on Friday 21st, the min HR between the intervals was:
1 - 119
2 - 124
3 - 126
4 - 131
5 - 133

this is good


Depending on how I feel, I was thinking Monday I might do ~5k at a slightly easier pace say 4:45 ish.
Then for Friday's intervals session I'm open to suggestions. If a Parkrun on Sat is still on the card (depends how soon I shake this cold) then I'll move things around and do a reduce session like 5x500 on the Thursday. If Parkrun isn't going to happen then maybe 8x400? 5x1k? I'd like to know what you'd suggest.

make it the priority to recover from the cold .. couple of low level runs will probably benefit you more .. the body is trying to absorb the quality and a few easier days allows for this .. you must allow and develop your cycles to go up and down

cheers and enjoy TheEd