+- Running Information Forums (https://www.time-to-run.com/forums)
+-- Forum: The Training Zone (https://www.time-to-run.com/forums/Forum-The-Training-Zone)
+--- Forum: 5km Training (https://www.time-to-run.com/forums/Forum-5km-Training)
+--- Thread: Still aiming for sub 20-min 5k... (/Thread-Still-aiming-for-sub-20-min-5k)
RE: Still aiming for sub 20-min 5k... - TheEd - 23-01-2024
Hi GM, I have seen this post, we shall be placing the forums into maintenance later today
cheers TheEd
RE: Still aiming for sub 20-min 5k... - GavMoon - 31-01-2024
Hi TheEd,
Ok here's a quick update. Last week was a big week because with the weekend off I canned what would have been an easy swim on Friday and substituted it with Saturday's intervals run, so Tues-Fri were all quite big days.
This is how last week panned out:
- Monday: easy run just under 10k
- Tuesday: hard ride short VO2 intervals > 10 mins easy run
- Weds: am: 2x10 mins tempo run (4:41, 4:35) pm: open water group swim
- Thurs: 3x7 mins threshold ride (I find this harder than VO2 intervals)
- Fri: 3x2k threshold run (4:12, 4:09, 4:04)
The most interesting was Friday's 3x2k run. More on that below.
This week is looking like this:
- Monday: easy 8k run (late evening)
- Tuesday: bike - 9x2 mins VO2 intervals
- Weds (today) - just did 20 mins steady/tempo (4:36). This felt quite good and the HR stayed around 140 for most of it until the end. Open water group swim this evening.
- Thurs - 3x6 mins threshold ride
- Fri - easier swim, maybe CSS intervals
- Sat - intervals run. Not sure yet but maybe 400s / 200s around 3:45 / 3:30 pace.
- Sun - easy ride
Then it's race week. The tri is on Sunday 11th.
Back to last Friday's 3x2k threshold run. The 1st interval (4:12) wasn't too bad, but I struggled on the 2nd (4:09). Garmin says my lactate threshold is 4:11 / 163 bpm and I feel runs faster than this really test me. During that second interval my first thought was "I would struggle to complete this at 4:00 pace". Then I started thinking "this is only 2k, I could never hold this for 5k". Then the 3rd interval actually felt easier. than the 2nd. I'm not sure if this was psychological (relief that it was the last one) or physical (I stopped after the 2nd to wet my cap as I was getting hot) but I didn't mind it as much.
Interestingly, 2 month ago at the end of November I did 5k threshold off the bike in 21:00 (so 4:12 pace) and that felt solid, not like a huge effort at all. Perhaps last Friday I was fatigued after a big week.
But in general I struggle to know what sort of pace I should be targeting for the interval sessions. Do I need to be pushing 4:00 pace (or faster) for things like 5x1k and really going hard, or is something like 4:05 or 4:10 going to be just as good, without tiring me out for subsequent sessions so much?
I have a friend here who runs 5k in 16:40 but very rarely trains any intervals at that 3:20 pace. He runs over 100km/week though so perhaps that is a different approach?
RE: Still aiming for sub 20-min 5k... - TheEd - 31-01-2024
Hi GM, we are very close to having the structure ready to share with you
be careful not to do too much tempo work on the bike and running too close together as it doesn't give the legs much recovery
glad to see the email notifying us of this new post came through as it wasn't working properly on the old server
as for your friend with the 16:40 5k .. we work on the less is better and once the body absorbs the faster interval work you can always add mileage
these programs have cycles and currently (where we are) the athletes have been doing easy running and hills for the months of November and December. They went to the indoor track for the 1st time 3 weeks ago and did a 2k time-trial as a marker. The times posted is an indicator of their natural ability and of how well the easy running (around and below 140bpm) has worked for them.
From my personal experience from coaching I am well aware of the benefits of mileage however over all the years, almost all my top athletes worked full time jobs, so I had to find a method whereby the running didn't 'kill' them and that it wasn't a continual slog. These methods produced the results while maintaining balance in life.
I am originally from Cape Town and coached there back in the day and understand the marathon and Ultra concept of SA
Be careful not to over do it, focus on training but focus the most on recovery
Enough from me and on we go
TheEd
ps.. once the athlete establishes what the 2k pace is, the 1k pace is normally 5 to 10 seconds per k quicker. The athlete must never run flat out. The 2k session develops speed endurance. your 5k pace makes the 10k pace become easier with development. Try not to test yourself during training as to how good you are feeling and comparing, try to do the sessions and instead of looking to go quicker focus on relaxing at pace. It is one of the most important things an athlete can learn, to relax at speed. Once the athlete gets to the pace of session they should try focus on being relaxed, the less strain in maintaining the pace, the longer you able to run at that pace over longer distances as you develop. Don't strain, train
RE: Still aiming for sub 20-min 5k... - GavMoon - 08-02-2024
Hi TheEd, this is great to see. I'm looking forward to some guidance because I feel like I'm spinning my wheels a bit at the moment.
I only saw this post yesterday because I didn't get an email, I'll check that I'm still subscribed to it.
I have a tri on Sunday so it's a "pre-race week" this week:
- Monday was shorter: 7k easy + gym
- Tuesday was a faster open water swim but only 1.5k
- Weds was 3x3 mins VO2 on the bike > 20 mins tempo run (4:32/km)
- Thurs (today) was an easier open water swim 1.2k
- Fri I'm planning 5-6 x 2 mins threshold run (= target race pace for the tri, around 4:10/4:15 pace)
- Sat will be openers on the bike, just half an hour.
And there are now 3 tri's coming up, all 3 weeks apart, so for the following 6 weeks I'll be in a 3-week cycle that I was planning to be something like:
- Week 1: recovery + a bit of load
- Week 2: some good load
- Week 3: pre-race week as detailed above
If you have any suggestions I'd really appreciate some guidance. Else we can target to start fresh after the 3rd tri. No more races planned after that.
Cheers,
GM
PS I loved your "PS", very interesting. I will try to focus on relaxing at pace. I am exactly "that guy" who wants to compare sessions and be getting faster each week/month!
RE: Still aiming for sub 20-min 5k... - GavMoon - 12-02-2024
Hi TheEd, here's a quick update from the weekend.
What I didn't mention is that I had a cold last week and was trying to shake it off in time. I was improving Saturday and mostly better (I think) by Sunday race day.
The race was hard. Overall I came 10th/50 in my age cat and I'm quite happy with that. But this tri has long transitions and the weather was really warm.
I may have gone too hard on the swim, the ride was OK but the way back was into a hot northerly. Then the run was awful! I averaged 4:37 pace. The way out was into the hot northerly and the way back was down at beach level and more sheltered, so it was just hot without the tailwind. The last km was 4:56 pace, included steps and a hill, but I think I was cooked.
I'm hoping I can blame most of the run performance on the heat and maybe I wasn't quite fully recovered from last week's cold. I had been aiming for threshold pace, but it was much slower in the end. However, the HR was around threshold or higher, interestingly. (Garmin tells me threshold is 4:11 pace and 163bpm - I was in the high 160s / low 170s for most of the 5k run yesterday).
This is what I was thinking for this week's plan:
- Today (Monday) I did a very easy recovery ride
- Tuesday = easy run. Not sure how long to go. Normally I do 8-10km. Should I do less as it's a recovery week, or is it ok if it's just really slow?
- Weds = easy swim, technique
- Thurs = sweet spot ride + steady run maybe something like 3x8 mins around 4:40 pace
- Fri - another easy swim, back to normal distance though
- Sat - intervals. I'm open to ideas!
- Sun - easy long ride
Do you have any suggestions for Saturday's intervals session? I have 3 weeks until the next tri which means 2 Saturday interval sessions (the 3rd Sat is too close to the race to do anything solid). I remember you used to prescribe the interval length and pace and that was very helpful. I like following training instructions!
Cheers,
GM
PS - thanks for the PM about the tri group.
RE: Still aiming for sub 20-min 5k... - GavMoon - 18-02-2024
Ok TheEd here's an update on the week that is just ending. This was the week after a tri (last Sunday) so it was easy mixed with a bit of work towards the end.
I read the pinned 5k forum thread between you and JR and tried to glean some insights from that + the sub 45 10k training program. So I did 6x1k on Saturday (yesterday) and was looking at doing a paced 5k (or 3k) next week.
- Mon: easy 1h recovery ride (with hindsight, next time I'll do less than an hour)
- Tue: 7.5k easy run (but it was hot)
- Wed: easy 2.3k swim
- Thu: 1h "sweet spot" bike intervals > 3x8 mins "tempo" run (4:45/km)
- Fri: 2.1k swim with a few steady 200/100 intervals
- Sat: 6x1k around 4:00-4:05 pace with 75 walk.
- Sun: (today) 1h15 endurance ride. A little bit above "easy", maybe a bit "tempo" but never "taxing"
Saturday's run was the most interesting part of the week. The intervals progressed nicely from a 4:05 down to a 4:00 on the last one.
The first interval didn't feel great though. Garmin was a bit slow to update my "lap pace" and for quite a while it was showing only 4:08 and I was thinking it was such a bad pace considering the effort I was putting in.
Similar to when I did the 3x2k session, I was again thinking "I could never hold this for 5km"
I tried to stay relaxed and remembered to "train, don't strain"
I hadn't done 1k intervals for around 2 months I think, so it was good to do this sort of session again.
Tempting to compare it to efforts last year when the average pace was under 4:00 - my best was 3:52 - but I just checked those and the HR was substantially higher, pushing high 170s or even 180. Yesterday the HR was mostly in the 160s and only broke 170 at the end of the last two intervals, so it does sound like progress is being made.
FYI here is the HR data for the 6 intervals (avg then max then pace)
1 - 149 / 160 (4:05)
2 - 154 / 165 (4:03)
3 - 157 / 165 (4:03)
4 - 159 / 169 (4:02)
5 - 161 / 172 (4:01)
6 - 161 / 173 (4:00)
PS maybe we should connect on Garmin then you can see all the data more easily!
PPS do you have any suggestions for runs next week? I have a half hour on Wednesday - I was thinking of the 3k effort or some threshold intervals? And I have the intervals on Saturday - I was thinking of doing 400s and 200s. But I'd love to hear your thoughts and suggestions! Next tri is in 2 weeks on Sunday 3rd March.
RE: Still aiming for sub 20-min 5k... - TheEd - 21-02-2024
for the 1k interval, you don't want to have your pulse over 165 .. watch your pulse during the rest, if the pulse drops below 120 within 1 minute then the pace may be too slow only then consider going a little quicker. The fine detail in the 6 x 1k session is the short rest .. it is not running faster than 5k pace
how are you finding the balance in your tri training?
TheEd
RE: Still aiming for sub 20-min 5k... - GavMoon - 22-02-2024
Hi TheEd,
That's interesting about the rests. This was 75s walking, which I find quite a bit easier than jogging the rest. I checked Garmin for the HR data on the rests and it was generally getting down below 100bpm. After the first interval it went below 90bpm. This is the minimum HR though, the average was around 120-125 for each.
As for balancing the training, I'm working on it. Definitely still a challenge. E.g. Tuesday this week was a tough VO2 bike session (21x1 min "on" with 30s "off" done as 3 blocks of 7) and so Wednesday had to be a bit lighter, but I went to that OW swim group in the evening and they were doing deep water starts which was quite intense and after that Garmin said recovery time = 96h and training readiness = 1 (out of 100). So I'm having a day off today instead of doing a tempo ride.
I think doing an easy ride on Sunday followed by an easy run on Monday is a waste of my potential recovery days. So I might look to make Monday's run more of the tempo/threshold day and the long/easy run can be midweek, maybe after a harder bike day.
Any suggestions for this Saturday's intervals run? I was thinking of 400s or 200s or something. Next tri is a week on Sunday.
Cheers, GM
RE: Still aiming for sub 20-min 5k... - TheEd - 23-02-2024
consider using swimming as active recovery, as we have found the leg recovery is a lot better with swimming. GM, also note, don't overdo things. Don't get carried away with the specifics in cycling, don't get too carried away looking to do intense interval work on the bike, rather learn to be comfortable on the bike, learning to spin 'properly'
in the tri race, when you come out the water, you have to be comfortable on the bike, where you actually able to recover at pace and not crunching the gears but maintaining a high cadence while recovering.
how are you finding your swimming
TheEd
RE: Still aiming for sub 20-min 5k... - GavMoon - 04-03-2024
Hi TheEd - yes I agree, I like swimming as a leg recovery, but then the productive sessions often involve intervals at a high HR and that can lead to Garmin giving me a long recovery time because of the cardio aspect of the workout.
I feel like my swimming has gone off the boil a bit the last few months actually and I think at least part of that is because I haven’t been doing as many really hard intervals.
I did a tri yesterday and the weather wasn’t too hot at all, just a bit windy.
- Average swim (I deliberately went easier to see if it made a difference on the bike)
- Better bike (aero bars helped, I went by feel, power was slightly higher than before)
- Good run (4:18 pace, not quite the 4:15-4:10 I think I “should” be able to manage, but I was happy with the pacing, didn’t run out of steam and felt I was close to the limit without going over it).
I actually drank (Powerade + a bit more salt) on the bike this time too and I think that helped me feel less fatigued after the event.
3 weeks to the next one and then the season's all over. At that point I usually have a fairly easy April for swimming before starting on technical stuff in May. I’ll take a couple of easy weeks on the bike as well and then start aerobic base work.
But more important than that, perhaps then is the time to give you a “blank canvas” to sort out my running? I plan to just do 2 rides and 2 swims per week over most of the winter. I won’t have any tris until Nov/Dec but might do the odd Parkrun.
What do you think?
Thanks,
GM