Still aiming for sub 20-min 5k...

[GavMoon]

Hi The Ed, 

I'm really glad to see that these forums are still going ?  It's been about 10 years since I was last here. In that time I've had plenty of ups and downs with the back, had 2 kids, done a fair bit of swimming and riding and in the last couple of years fixed up the back issues and now have about 18 months of consistent running behind me. 

I'm doing sprint triathlons as my "main event" but am still targeting a sub 20-min 5k! I didn't think it would take this long but people tell me consistency is the key so I'm confident I can get there one day.

Would you be able to help me get there? 

These are my 5k results since I fixed up the back and started running regularly:
- Aug 2022 23:38
- Nov 2022 22:28
- Dec 2022 21:54
- Feb 2023 (part of a tri) 21:59
- Mar 2023 (part of a tri, measured long) 22:58
- May 2023 21:21
- June 2023 20:37
- Sep 2023 20:35
- Dec 2023 20:52 (this was today, disappointed and just wasn't feeling it)

So I seem to have made little progress since June. 

I'm averaging about 25km/week and this is how I'm structuring my weeks as it's "tri-season" (and this is working quite well at the moment)

Mon: Easy run 9-10k + strength
Tue: Hard swim 2-3k
Wed: Hard ride + tempo or threshold run off the bike 6-8k (e.g. 20 mins at 4:40 or 3x6 mins 4:20/4:15/4:10)
Thu: Easier swim 2-3k
Fri: Steady ride
Sat: Intervals run ~8k (e.g. 5x1km at ~4:00 , 8x400m at ~3:50, or 20 mins fartlek say 1 min 3:55 / 1 min 4:25)
Sun: Easy longer ride

Based on my tri results the run part is also the one I need to work on the most. 

FYI next week we're away. I was planning to take my runners and just do a few unstructured trail runs. Maybe some peaks as it's a hilly area. 

What surprises me most about the results is that some months have seen big improvements (e.g. Nov > Dec 2022 or May > June 2023) and then it goes flat for a while. 
Last month I did a 5k "threshold" run off the bike in 21:00 and it felt pretty ok. Today I went all out at Parkrun and was only 10s faster. Garmin's "race predictor" has my 5k around 20:25-20:35 and it's been around that level for months.

Threshold and tempo paces have been improving, but the fast intervals pace is static. E.g I see that in early July I did 5x1k with 90s walk/jog and averaged 3:54 for the intervals. 

What do you reckon?

[TheEd]

Hi GavMoon, yes, we are still functional though we are moving servers in the next couple of weeks and the overall structure will be going through a new revamp

Happy New Year to you and all the best for 2024

Do you have any pulse data for the 1k session and the easy runs?

I like to see that swimming has been introduced as it is great for active recovery

try to work on a 2 week cycle where 1 week is more intense and the next week is more easy

we are using our 3 week 10k program as a structure for some of the triathletes we are working with, we in the Northern Hemisphere, so we deep into
winter

over to you

TheEd

[GavMoon]

Hi The Ed,

Nice to hear from you and likewise all the best for 2024.

Yes I’ve found the swimming great for flushing the legs.

For the HR data:
- easy/long runs average 120-125 bpm for a pace around 5:30/km

For the 5x1k interval sessions here is some data for the 1k intervals:
- I did one on 4th Nov. Avg pace was 3:57. Avg HR was around 162-163 and max was 173-174.
- Another one on 17th Aug. Avg pace was 3:52. Avg HR was around 168-171 and max was 179-181 (basically my max HR)
- The other one on 8th July averaged 3:54 pace. Avg HR was around 166-170 and max around 176-180.

For context, during the parkrun a couple of days ago average HR was 171 and I maxed out at 183.

The Aug and July 5x1k sessions were back in the days when on an intervals session like this I'd basically try to go as fast as I could while still finishing the session (which is often the approach with swimming..) but more recently I've started aiming for more ~90% on the intervals, maybe better for a lower risk of injury and faster recovery for training the next day? Hence the Nov session was a bit slower with lower HR.

Hope that helps! Let me know if it's not what you were after.

Cheers, GM

[GavMoon]

Hi The Ed - did you want me to start incorporating elements from the 10k program or will you suggest some specific sessions?

Still chilling on vacation this week. I've done a couple of easy runs with some other people. They were quite slow (6:30/km) but Garmin's liking it - the 5k race predictor has gone down to 20:04 which I thought was interesting.

Cheers,
GM

[TheEd]

Hi GM

are you doing an aerobic base currently?

TheEd

[GavMoon]

Hi TheEd,

I don't think so? (I'm not 100% sure what an aerobic base is ? )
My weekly structure has been pretty much the same for the last 12 months, maybe more:

Basically 3 runs a week:
- Easy long (occasionally ending with 2k/10 mins tempo)
- Tempo or threshold intervals
- Faster intervals or fartlek.

So the weeks are structured, but I have no structure over the year. This was fine 18 months ago when I was just getting back into it - I was getting faster every month just from running consistently.

It's the summer tri season down under now, so I guess in theory I should be peaking but unfortunately I appear to have hit a plateau/ceiling.

Edit: when on vacation I've generally just done easy/long runs. So that includes last week + 3 weeks in September.

Cheers,
GM

PS - Race details: first tri was 10th Dec. Next ones are 11th Feb, 3rd March and 24th March
PPS - I'm back from vacation now and this is what the week is looking like: Monday I did 11k easy ~5:30 including 2k tempo ~4:50 / Wednesday I did 3x8 mins tempo progression (pace 4:50/4:38/4:33) after a 15x1 min VO2 intervals ride / Saturday I plan to do short intervals like 8x400 or maybe 3 min intervals, maybe some 200s.

[GavMoon]

Update: on Saturday (yesterday) I did 10x1 min around 3:40/km pace with 1 min easy jog in between. It felt pretty ok until the last few which were harder.
And I added 4x 20-sec hill sprints at the end.

[GavMoon]

Update from this week, easier week this week (per TrainerRoad plan) and I was fine with that:
- Monday I did an easy run, shorter than usual (about 8k total)
- Wednesday I did a half hour run that included 20 mins tempo "comfortably uncomfortable" - 4:30/km pace.
- On Saturday I was planning to try 3x2km around threshold (something like 4:15/4:10/4:05) but a couple of hard swims this week have Garmin telling me to take it easy, so I might just do an easy half hour (which is what TrainerRoad has planned anyway) or maybe some more tempo.

Hope the server move is going ok!
GM

[TheEd]

Hi GM, how are you feeling?

what swim sessions do you do?

TheEd
ps. the moving of TTR will be processed from tomorrow into Wednesday, so the forums will be placed in maintenance mode
pps. we had to move our other domains from our network first and left ttr for last

[GavMoon]

Hi TheEd,

Good to hear from you! The swim sessions vary depending on the time of year and how close we are to a race.
They generally always include intervals of 100s and 200s, sometimes 50s and sometimes 300s or 400s. Occasionally 25s too.

More recently (in line with my belief that I was overtraining) I've starting doing one session a week based on "CSS pace" which is more sustainable, like tempo running. The other session is still harder.

However, now we are within a month of a race I'm doing 1 swim a week in the open water. I usually do a few loops, practising starts and finishes running into/out of the water with some steady swimming in the middle of the loop. But last week I went to an open water group for the first time and we did a warm up and then three "races" which were about 700m each. They weren't all out, but there were pretty solid. Garmin gave me a 3-4 day recovery time after that.

The second "hard" swim last week was 2 days after the open water group. I did 25x100 at CSS pace. I probably needed an easier session as I was still recovering from the open water session. Recovery went back up to 4 days...

But on the whole I'm feeling good. Garmin's 5k race predictor has come down to 19:46, which is the lowest I've seen it. It dropped from 20:30 to 20:15 (roughly) after the last Parkrun, when my max HR went up. It dropped another 15 secs in the first week of Jan when I just did a week of easy long runs. And it's dropped another 15 secs since then.

Last Saturday I ended up doing about 6k with 3x4 mins tempo in there.
Today I did just under 10k easy.
Tomorrow I'm planning 1-2k easy brick run off the bike (hard VO2 40s/20s session)
Wednesday I was going to do something like 3x8 mins tempo running and then that open water group again in the evening.
Thursday is a hard threshold ride.
Friday I want to try the 3x2k threshold (4:15, 4:10, 4:05)
And then it's a weekend off because I'm going camping.

Btw TrainerRoad is mostly based around 3 weeks on and then an easier week, which might work well with your 3 week structure.

Cheers,
GM

PS snuck in a reply before maintenance mode lands!